ASU Professor Kim Holst makes a living from words. Kim is a lawyer who teaches law students to write. She is also working on a PhD in journalism. Whether it’s rhetoric, analogy, or persuasion, Kim is fascinated by effective storytelling.

We asked her: If golf wants to expand its reach, how should we tell stories differently?

This is one of the most fascinating discussions we’ve ever had on the podcast.

Barry helps us to explore honesty, communications, and cultural fit. Reassuringly, even at an organisation of Liverpool FC’s stature, the hallways still occasionally echo with golf’s biggest barrier to progress: “But we’ve always done it this way…”